Ah, excuse me, when did I say everything is an illusion?
I do not think everything is an illusion (other than your understanding maybe)
And sorry if you feel others opinions are fucked because they don't give
YOUR problems enough credit
(sorry you'll have to work that one out yourself).
It's a big world out there bro, don't think your problems are the most real
or important (well maybe to you, ok)
=================
>For me, this world is as real as
>anything I feel - and I think carrying on about how We Are All Really
>One, and we need to concentrate on our similarities instead of our
>differences is just glossing over unpleasantries and trying to solve
>problems by ignoring them.
Again, I don’t know quite what your referring too? This world seems very
real to me too.
As for "we are all really one", the only reference I remember making towards
this is in saying we are all "humanbeings"… and that had nothing to do with
"glossing over unpleasantries" or "trying to solve problems by ignoring them"
I have no problem with criticism and find it often times the necessary path
to learning/explaining something. But it would be nice if you would refer to
what quotes I said instead of being so "vague" yourself. because I think you
have either misunderstood what I said or given me credit for things I
haven’t said.
========================
>I know full well the dangers of getting into
>an I'm-a-victim-and-I'm-not-gonna-do-anything funk, but I think telling
>another he's doing that can also be easily be used as a brush off to
>justify one's real oppression of others.
This has something to do with what "I" said?
=======================
>No, I don't think the world that comes to our senses and responds to our
>causations is an illusion. It seems to me that spending billions of
>years evolving this complex and interrelated order around us is a lot of
>trouble for anyone to go to, just to create an illusion.
Here you go with the "illusion" thing again. I’m not sure how this relates
to my posts, I think things are very real (but then it’s all just my
imagination :)
=======================
> The order of
>the material universe revealed to us by western science is far more
>profound and beautiful than any fabrication that any religionists have
>presented us.
The religion of physics, astronomy, chemistry, and biology
>is much more likely to describe the divine.
Hey I’m all for science and believe it continues to bring us great
understandings of things (though I might question how "some" people use it,
but that’s a whole other story).
You start off by accusing me of calling everything an illusion (including
your problems?), yet my posts refer to something entirely different. If I’m
missing something here, please let me know. But I think you need to reread
my posts.
=====================
> Spirit is the things that
>are harder to measure that are generated by matter, and spirit in turn
>regenerates matter - and neither can exist without the other.
So?
======================
> (Maybe we can start a Pantheism thread separate from this gender one.)
Maybe we can start a "56 Chevy’s" thread and a whole bunch more too?
=====================
>What is a relevant Rainbow issue?
Hey now "this" I did write about!
========================
>Well, I fancy we are more than just a
>group that gets together to camp in the woods.
We are many things, but then I never said we were just about camping in the
woods.
So what’s your point regarding what "I" said?
==========================
>If that were the case,
>then agr should be just a bunch of technical discussions of kitchen
>methods and shitter design.
Lets see if I understand you…. because I said something about thinking
there should be more discussions about ways to improve our gatherings, you
twist this into me saying our gatherings are just a group of people that
gets together to camp in the woods?
Go back and re-read please.
And what’s wrong with some "technical" talk anyway? (I also mentioned
spiritual things needing focus on at our gatherings too).
In my opinion, we could use a hell of a lot more focus on our gatherings in
AGR (but then that was what my post was all about :)
If you think it all gets done by just talking about your "feelings", then I
don’t know how to respond.
And if you don’t think a lot of spiritual stuff comes out/gets created when
folks focus on our "camping" needs, then you are really missing something bro.
I did make some negative remarks regarding the gender threads, but also
apologized for any implying it should be a "this or that" issue when it
really didn’t have anything to do with my main point of seeing more "rainbow
issues" ( as I said, there is plenty of room on AGR for all the threads
folks want to pursue)
===========================
>But many people claim that we are camping to
>achieve other purposes.
Well all kinds of people claim all kinds of things as to "why" we gather.
That is why its impossible to come up with "one" definition as to what the
Rainbow Family/Gatherings are all about.
Usually when you try to "define it" you only catch an aspect of it (and
help yourself to become "narrow" in thinking at the same time, but then
we’re all guilty of that at times right?).
But all the "different opinions" aside, 10,000+ people "camping" in the
woods does indeed require some "logistical" needs, especially if it’s going
to be "spiritual", "harmonious" or achieve any other "purposes".
Being a person who seems to get very upset about "illusions", I would think
you would understand the need to focus on our gathering if we’re ever to
break the "revolving door" movies.
==============================
> We claim to be for peace, so I would deduce that
>such posts as Ellen's and Thomas's about nuclear disarmament would
>certainly be relevant.
I’ve heard we "pray" for World Peace at our gatherings, but didn’t know our
family stood for "political actionism"?
Yes there is all kinds of good causes many in our family focus in on, and
in that sense it’s great for folks to use AGR to share such information.
But calling it a "rainbow issue"? not in my book.
==============================
>We say we are for protecting the environment, so
>everything that Starfire posts about her actions is also relevant.
As much as we all want to protect our environment, that doesn’t make it a
"rainbow issue".
If folks want to discuss it on AGR and try and do something about it, power
to them.
But you don’t have to label it a "rainbow issue" to justify it’s existents
on AGR (or anywhere else).
Pretty soon if we keep labeling everything we think is a good cause as a
"rainbow issue", we’ll have relabeled rainbow entirely into something it is not.
============================
>Some
>think that psychedelic drugs aid our spiritual quests, and we are
>harassed by the authorities for using them, so Pie Man's stuff is
>relevant.
Relevant? Yes! (as is other examples you gave)
But a "rainbow issue"? I think not.
Yes some/many folks uses drugs (your word) at our gatherings, but that does
not make Rainbow about "drugs". Some folks don’t use them nor think they
have much place. Are they not rainbow too?
Fight for your right to use it if you want. Discuss it in depth on AGR if
you want.
But don’t label it as a "rainbow issue" - please. (not to be mistaken for
such topics as "selling it at gatherings", etc)
=============================
>And - we say we are feminists, and many sisters complain of
>sexual harassment at our gatherings, so I think it is most appropriate
>to discuss the frustrations that lead to this.
Yes yes, a very appropriate and needed thing to discuss, no disagreements
here (wouldn’t hurt to also discuss how we often turn such incidents at our
gatherings into something that looks like a scene out of "lord of the fly’s")
But gender is not a "rainbow issue" per se, just a reality within it.
=====================
>I'll concur that in the
>last two weeks this collection of threads has dominated the newsgroup,
>but I think it is more a temporary flare up in the fire.
Yes I agree completely. AGR’s focus changes constantly over the season’s &
years.
As I said before, I shouldn’t have mentioned the other threads when
complaining about not seeing enough threads on "rainbow issues". But I won’t
except your argument that they are all "rainbow issues"… at least not in
regards to what I was talking about.
=====================
>I'm getting a little frustrated that discussions of broad abstractions,
>and pick apart flames, have started to replace talking about real
>individual experiences and solutions to individual problems.
What? ….. broad abstractions and pick apart flames to replace talking about
real … hey, if you stick around long enough, you’ll notice it happens on a
regular bases in AGR :)
But really, you think talking about our gatherings and how we can better
feed ourselves, share information, take care of our sanitary needs, bring
more harmony and loving spirit to our councils and other such things I
suggested needing more discussion, are "broad abstractions"?
And that your personal experiences & problems are much more "real" (and
relevant) a subject for AGR? …….. Well I guess I do, at times, think it’s
not as important as the "family as a whole" is. Sorry if that offends you,
but it ain’t "broad abstractions".
=====================
>My original
>Long Post, Julia's post where she mentioned - among other things -
>talking to your tits, and MT Crystal's Golden Road piece are examples of
>what I would like to see more of.
It appears by your words that it would be fine for AGR to be the way "you"
want to see it, but not necessarily the way others want it ….. I see
As long as you want to "talk to your tits" or anything else you consider
deep & real ….. and as long as others want to too, then it will happen. You
don’t have to worry about discussions on our gatherings ever not leaving
room on AGR for such subjects, it would never happen.
But you don’t have to justify them as "relevant rainbow issues" or put down
the wanting of discussions regarding our needs as a family, either.
In closing, it seems trying to define what is and what isn’t a "rainbow
issue" is a futile effort. Your definition and my definition seem totally
different. I can live with that, can you?
====================
>- Butterfly Bill
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
It was fun "venting" with you. Please try to show the statements you refer
to next time, it makes it easier to try and understand what the hell your
talking about.
Sorry if you became so frustrated by the words of others, (I do it myself at
times :) …BJ
P.S. don’t forget, neither of us really knows what we’re talking about even
if we think we do …… so when things seem confusing or frustrating … LAUGH!
Tell a joke or do some other sick and silly thing to remind you of our
limitations as an individual and lack of ability to see all sides of things.
By all means … never use shellac on your opinions!